73: Everest 50 - Commercial Expeditions Kit List with Di Gilbert

The fifth of an extra special 5 part series celebrating 50 years since Doug Scott and Dougal Haston became the first Britons to stand on the summit of Everest, Cathy & Wayne are joined by Scarpa sponsored athlete Di Gilbert.

The first British woman to lead an expedition to the top of Mount Everest from the North side, Di has climbed all 7 Summits and worked 4 Antarctic seasons, gaining a phenomenal amount of knowledge about climbing and working in extreme, remote and challenging environments. Di gives us an insight into todays commercial expeditions chatting about essential kit and climbing from a women’s perspective.

Listen in for tips on the best expedition footwear, why crampon choice is important, foot health, top snacks, packing strategies, why Scotland is the best training ground in the world and discover Di's most treasured item of expedition equipment - it may not be what you expect!

Listen ,learn and if you are able, please consider donating to our chosen charity: Community Action Nepal


The Climbers Shop and Joe Brown Shops | Outdoor Clothing & Equipment UK
The Joe Brown Outdoor Academy

Joe Brown Outdoor Academy

Scarpa Team Member: Di Gilbert

Di Gilbert, website

Thank you to Scarpa for making this episode possible.

If you found this interesting then don't forget to download our earlier episodes:

Episode 72: Everest 50 - Fast & Light with Tom Livingston

Episode 71: Everest 50 - Remote Expeditions With Mick Fowler

Episode 70: Everest 50 - Gear Innovation with Mike Parsons

Episode 69: Everest 50 - 1975 SW Face Expedition with Sir Chris Bonington and Paul 'Tut' Braithwaite

Episode 67: Joe Brown and Kangchenjunga 1955 

Episode 66: Kit Lists - Alpine Climbing with BMG Tom Ripley

Episode 62: Community Action Nepal @KMF24

Episode 41: How To Keep Warm With Dr Matt Fuller

Episode 34: Womens Technical Clothing Fit & Function

Episode 30: Kit Lists - 8000m Peaks With Jon Gupta

Episode 28: Mountain Boots with Scarpa

Episode 26: Kit Lists - Expeditions With Andy Cave

Episode 24: Kits Lists - Polar Travel with Catrin Thomas

Transcript

Wayne Singleton   0:13 
Hi there, welcome to Outdoor Gear chat with episode 73 in our Everest 50th anniversary specials with number 5 of the series. I'm Wayne and I'm joined as always by Cathy. Hello. All right, how are you doing? 

Cathy   0:33 
Hi, Wayne. Yes, I am Cathy and I am the co-owner and director of the Joe Brown Shops in Snowdonia and the climber shop in Ambleside and we have a direct link with Doug Scott who was along with Dougal Haston, the first Briton to stand on top of Everest. So we're delighted to be able to celebrate the 50th anniversary of that huge expedition in 1975. And we've been very fortunate to talk to a really great selection of people and experts over the past four episodes. But this episode is all about the lady's voice. I am absolutely thrilled to introduce Di Gilbert. Hello Di. 

Di Gilbert   1:30 
Hi Cathy, hello Wayne. 

Cathy   1:33 

I just thought I'd do a quick introduction there because I'm now going to do like, the big introduction because it is pretty big. So everybody brace yourselves. 

Di Gilbert   1:38 
Oh my goodness. OK, right. 

Wayne Singleton   1:40 
Well, l’ll be here a while.   

Cathy   1:47
So, Di holds the highest UK outdoor instructional qualification and has been working in the mountains for over 30 years and over 19 years have been spent leading expeditions over 8000 meters. She's also got 4 Antarctic seasons under her belt as head guide and later, field operations Manager. Di has gained a phenomenal amount of knowledge about climbing and working in extreme, remote and challenging environments, and thrives on the challenge of leading big commercial expeditions. She has also represented Great Britain in the International Ski Mountaineering Federation's World Championships, and it's also the Director of Skimo Scotland and you work with the Scottish Avalanche Information Service. So, an all round expert in the snowy mountains. So I think I need a breath now actually.
 
Di Gilbert   2:46 
I don't think I'm an expert, Cathy. 

Wayne Singleton   2:48 
Do you want me to take over on this? I'm not on the next bit. 

Cathy   2:55 
Yeah, well, actually, there's a little caveat on this one because Di was the first British woman to lead an expedition to the top of Mount Everest from the northern side. 
 I think Sue Harper was the first British woman to lead an expedition to the summit from the southern side. So that makes you part of a very small group of women who have successfully led more than one expedition to the summit of the world's highest mountain. You've also climbed all of the seven summits which you completed in 2010 as well. So busy, busy, busy Di. 

Di Gilbert   3:32 

I don't know anything else, to be honest, Cathy and I would say it actually, took me longer to do my Munro's than it did the seven summits. 

Cathy   3:41 
No way really? 

Wayne Singleton   3:43 
Brilliant. 

Di Gilbert   3:44 
Yeah, and like that sparked up some memory, I remember doing a lecture in Aberdeen one night and somebody said to me, when you open up the floor to questions at the end, and it was all about Everest. They were like the seven summits. And he said, well, what's next? And I said like, well, I suppose I'd better finish the Munros and some, some lady next to my mum said, oh, I've done them and so that was it. So I thought right here we go. 

Yeah. I’m just thinking, Cathy. I actually, and  I might be wrong in this: I actually don't think there has been another female British climber who's actually led anything from the north? Yeah, I think everything I'm aware of has been the south and it's pretty much myself, Sue and Adele Pennington. And they were from the South. So they've probably got sensible lives. 

Cathy   4:43 
Well, actually, I mean, today is your 20th anniversary from your first summit, because you've done it twice. 

Di Gilbert   4:52 
I know, I know, I know. 

Wayne Singleton   4:53 
Wow. 

Cathy   4:54 
So massive congratulations on that. Really fantastic and I think also I'd just like to take this opportunity to pay homage to Junko Tabei as the first woman to summit Everest back in 1975, in 1993 Rebecca Stevens became the first British woman. 
Shortly followed the following season in the autumn by Jeanette Harrison, and then of course in 1995 there was the incredible unsupported, oxygen free ascent by Alison Hargreaves, which was phenomenal. And then lastly, and not wishing to diminish anybody's assent. Lhakpa Sherpa, who has summited Everest 10 times, and if anybody has the opportunity to see her film Mountain Queen, that is really quite a fantastic watch. An absolutely amazing watch. 

But let's talk. Let's talk kit. Let's get back to Outdoor Gear Chat.

Di Gilbert   5:59 
You better. 

Cathy   6:01 
And ask. How many shoes do you take on an Everest trip? 

Di Gilbert   6:08 
Are you saying to like 3-inch 5-inch stiletto heels or? Like footwear, right, what a great place to start. And like Cathy we were just chatting at the start and I'm here from a commercial point of view. But I think since I started the whole 8000-meter peaks like in 2004 and things have changed massively. And then when Jake and I did Everest in ‘05 we took 10 weeks. 

So we had quite a lot of kit for that trip and of course this year has been fascinating with these four gents from London who smashed it in seven days. So I'm sure my answers from my experience will be very different to a group of guys on seven days opposed to like 10 weeks. So, but kit: so footwear, I think the first thing is do your research. In terms of what sort of mountain you are going for, because if a mountain's got quite a reputation for being, maybe a bit wetter or a bit, sort of like below the cloud level, it's going to be a little bit different to our dryer mountain, but in terms of feet wear, I would say if I start off at the extremes, a pair of flip flops. So and I'm not speaking about posh, like leather, like Birkenstocks. Can I say that because they are useless, but a pair of flip flops? So I can, like, get wet and let my feet air, get a bit sun. They are like the one end for like the hot valley temperatures. 

And then I suppose the other extreme would be the big 8000 meter boots and they'll literally be on my summit push. But then in between I've got all the other shoes I'll wear on a daily basis. And so they might be like my pair of approach shoes. That'll be like getting into base camp and actually even on some rotations lower down, I'll use my approach shoes. If I'm on moraine. So I'll use them quite a lot. I'll then have my faithful Scottish winter boots that I'll use all the time when actually above the snow line, and then I'll probably also have a pair of trainers that I can kick on and off around base camp just because I want to let my feet breathe a little bit more and then this wild card would be a pair of little wellies and or like a pair of completely waterproof boots that I can like splosh in puddles and get warm really fast. Keeps everything dry. So I've got 1 kit bag for footwear. 

Wayne Singleton   8:54 
You're not a fan of the Croc? 

Di Gilbert   8:56 
Well, you know, like a crock is a little welly. I would be in there. But no holes. I might have to Google that. 

Wayne Singleton   9:01 
They do. I think they do in fairness. I think there is a version. Yeah. Oh, no. It has got the holes in weirdly, I think and I have seen a heeled Croc somewhere as well.  

Cathy   9:15 
Oh, for goodness sake, no. 

Di Gilbert   9:16 
Yeah, wedges.  But like a pair of wellies, just like, you know. I used to wear like my Antarctic fleecy lined boots, but they just get a bit too warm. So I just feel like wellies and big socks now. 

Wayne Singleton   9:26 
I like that. That's good insight, I don't think we've heard that sort of angle before on the just on the footwear variety.   

Cathy   9:41 
Actually, just on that subject and this just came up in the shop the other day actually  from a member of staff who was asking because they get asked a lot, we have a quite a few customers come into the shop who are off maybe on their first trip who haven't been to altitude before and obviously buying boots is a major investment and it's not a piece of kit you want to get wrong either you can cope with a jacket that's a bit big, a pack that doesn’t sit quite right, but when it comes to footwear, it has to be spot on. 

Do, have you found, with your groups and with your personal experience, people's feet swell a lot at altitude, or how much kind of allowance do you personally allow for that? Or do you advise your clients?

Di Gilbert   10:28 
Now, that's interesting. You said that Cathy, because up until a few years ago I was a size 39 in whatever Scarpa boot I was in, no question. But I think as I've got older. I think your feet change and actually I did bump up a size on the 8000’ers just recently and I think like your feet do swell up. And actually I want to have room to wiggle my toes. But I don't want. I don't want to lose the dexterity. 
Especially when you're on like the more technical 8000ers and technical peaks, you need to still have that dexterity but saying that compared to like, you know, the equipment I had back 20 years ago to the equipment I've got now, everything's so much more fine-tuned anyway.  

So, you know it's a bit different, everything's lighter, everything performs way better. So that's been really great but I think, especially feet. You want to be able to wiggle your toes because things do swell up and you want to get you want to get a big, thick pair of toasty warm socks on as well. 

So yeah, so I would say it's a big investment and I think like you, with these massive investments go to a shop and try on a normal size and a size up, you know I mean because you don't want to spend a whack of money to then find out actually that you know, once you've got up above a certain height, your feet have gone boomf and you can't wear your boots. 

Cathy   11:46 
Yeah. 

Wayne Singleton   11:53 
And take, I guess taking the socks that you're gonna be wearing as well, or trying the boot on with the socks that you might wear, was a great tip I'd had. 

Cathy   11:53 
Yeah. 

Di Gilbert   11:59 
Yeah, but you know, you've got to have your summit day socks. Like so my treat. Every single expedition, is I have to go and buy a brand new pair of Summit Day socks. And it has to be the poshest, fluffiest, nicest pair of socks. But that is my one treat. So yeah. So yeah, I've got to have that summit day socks with me. 

Wayne Singleton   12:22 
Is that because they’re honking when they come back? 

Di Gilbert   12:26
Like socks just flatten, do you know what I mean? Like I just want a nice pair of toasty warm socks. You know? That's my treat. So with your new socks and your boots, try them on. 
 
Cathy   12:41 
With that, moving seamlessly into socks, actually that brings us onto the sort of the next question really. 

Di Gilbert   12:42 
Yeah. How do I follow that. 

Cathy   12:50 
What are your top tips for keeping your feet warm up high? 

Di Gilbert   12:57 
Like good footwear, you know, so of all the things to scrimp on, you have to invest in a pair of warm boots and like long gone are the days of plastic boots with over outers, etcetera. What you can buy nowadays, they're so warm. It's brilliant. And so I suppose the one thing is when you get into camp, I would say like, I'm trying to air my feet because your feet will be pretty sweaty. They’ll probably start off a little bit cool, but they will definitely sweat during the day. So once in the tent in any sort of sun it becomes an oven so things actually dry super fast. So I would be pretty much out of my boots, my liners are then getting dried and my feet are getting aired and whether or not I'm changing socks and then I suppose the big thing is when you go to bed at like 5:00 in the evening because that's what you do, get your liners inside your bag. 

Cathy   13:55 
Yeah. 

Di Gilbert   13:55 
 So everything important you're either wearing or is in your in your bag. So in the morning, you don't have to warm them up. So yeah, I think with technology and equipment nowadays, you really shouldn't be getting frostnip or frostbite. You know, something, you have been lax in your personal administration if that's the case, you know, so actually you’ve got to do your homework. 

Cathy   14:23 
Yeah. 

Wayne Singleton   14:23 
And just on the personal admin bit there you've mentioned a few times the importance to you of airing your feet. Why is that? Just for listeners who might not have the sort of experience that you two particularly have got, why is airing your feet important? 

Di Gilbert   14:26 
Oh, that's a good question, Wayne. If you were, like, having a long like, five day hike in the Scottish Highlands or across the Lakes or the Peak or whatever, your feet, they get sweaty, they swell up. And actually you just want to sort of like air them, to toughen them up again. Like, I'm not. I'm never going to be cleaning them because that's not really an option, but just getting the air on them for as much as possible is really important. And even just things like turning your socks inside out so your socks get a proper like de-crisping before they go back on. But yeah, so feet are pretty important because and of course if you keep them dry, they're not going to get blistered and all that sort of stuff as well. So yeah, just a general looking after your feet's pretty important. 

Wayne Singleton   15:10 
Yeah, I guess there's a bit of something along the lines of killing stuff, isn't there when you're airing them. It's not that horrible. Sweaty, warm environment, isn't great for our feet, is it? I think did we talk to Doctor Will at World Extreme ,did he mention something about the importance of looking after your feet on expedition whatever form that might take for you. 

Di Gilbert   15:36 
Yeah, I know exactly. If you look at any climber, whether it be a rock climber or a mountaineer like we've all got scabby toes like all are. Our feet are like, they're not our best-selling points because they've been like boot band for so many years and like nails have been cut down so much. But you know, but it just you know the harsh reality is this is what the business entails. 

Wayne Singleton   16:07 
Yeah, indeed, indeed. 

Cathy   16:09
Oh, your feet are amazing when you think what they do and what they can put up with and the amount of support you get from something like a Phantom 8000, Phantom 6000 boot to allow you to operate on an extraordinarily steep terrain in, in those kind of temperatures is pretty incredible really. So, I kind of I'm OK with not having beach ready feet.
 
Di Gilbert   16:34 
Yeah, yeah. 

Cathy   16:34 
But mine aren’t affected by being a higher attitude. That's like running and running too far.  

And then of course your boots. It's not just you and your boots on the rock; you've often got a pair of crampons on the bottom. Which completely messes with your height, your balance and everything else. And maybe you're on super slippery, ridiculously hard ice. Maybe you're on like chossy rock, so you're going over a lot of different environments. 

If we talk about Everest in particular, because I'm sure all of the mountains you've done demand different and actually sometimes even the route on the same mountain demands a different type of equipment. But what's your kind of boot/ crampon combination of choice? and how do you kind of change or what factors influence your choice?

Di Gilbert   17:41 

I want stuff that works. 

Cathy   17:44 
Yeah, yeah. 

Di Gilbert   17:44 
I want stuff that works. It has to work and the great thing about like the big hills is actually it's not, I would like to say it's not people's first gig in the big mountains. To get to the stage of doing super high peaks.,you've got to have had some sort of mountain apprenticeship. And actually, I would say you've got to buy smart right at the beginning and actually the best training ground we have got in the UK is Scottish winter. 

And if I think about what my Everest kit is, with the exception of my 8000 meter boots, my massive sleeping bag and my down suit, everything else I use in Scotland. So, if you spent the apprenticeship on home turf, you know what works and like you don't need a pair of fancy technical mono points because actually when you're  wearing through soft neve, they're useless. So for all these big hills, you want a solid, genuine crampons that you're really happy with and it's and you've got to be a little bit careful with them because like with my general mountaineering crampons I have grades and so at the early season, Scottish winter when there's very little snow and it's much more mixed and rocky, everything gets blunt. So of course I've got my blunt crampons, but then actually when I'm wanting a bit more precision or it's a bit more neve-er, a bit icier. I want sharp crampons. 

So I  remember, once making mistake of taking a really blunt pair of crampons, I think it might have been to Manaslu actually. And getting up to top camp, it was brick hard, like really old blue ice. And it was just absolutely harrowing. And so from then on, I'm like, no, I actually need really good crampons that actually I might trash on the rock section, but they're going to keep them good on the firm icy section 
So you need stuff that you're happy with in all sorts of terrain. And then of course, you can't go super super light. So if you've got a pair of super lightweight crampons, they're going to be disintegrated after a few rotations. So yeah, so a good pair of solid mountaineering crampons. Of all the things to scrimp on lightness and durability: it ain't going to be my crampons. 

Cathy   19:58 
They need to be the workhorses. 

Di Gilbert   20:13
Yeah, definitely. 
 
Cathy   20:19 
So you've got obviously a lot of kit to take up with you on your on your ascent and. 
Do you use or? What sort of rucksack do you use on your walk in and then on the mountain? Is it a different one and do you pack them differently, or do you just have your set way that you pack, you pull your pack together? 

Di Gilbert   20:44 
So when I sort of do any sort of expedition, I sort of break it into various phases. And so every phase will have a different set of equipment. So especially if I'm meeting people who are embarking on this sort of expedition life. So I would say, when you fly into a city, you're a tourist. And so actually, you just need what you would need to be a tourist in a city. And then of course when you're on the trekking phase. 
You're then literally a trekker or a walker. So I'd be thinking I would have my little. 
18-20 litre like little summer pack that I use all the time here and I literally would pack just for that day's treck. There's nothing special in it and then it's only then when I start moving up and down the mountain, so I would then go into what I would say to people is my rotational phase and that's when I'd be going up and down and that's when I'd be carrying stuff up and down the mountain. So I'd be going from like on 18-20 litre rucksack, to my biggest rucksack I ever have is a 45 plus rucksack and actually if it can’t fit into that rucksack or strapped on the outside, I'm carrying too much kit. So especially if I look at my sleeping bag that I took 20 years ago to my sleeping bag I take now, the one I’ve got now compresses way smaller, it's actually way warmer and it's half the weight. So actually you know where you used to always go for a big bulky full mattresses everything is now air and it's half the weight, the bulk, etcetera. So to me 45 liters plus that little bit at the top is all we would take. and of course I would just feel that. and especially when I'm doing rotations, you don't want to have too much kit on the hill because if it then goes you've lost it. So it's a bit of a strategy about how and when you start taking stuff up the hill. And so I'd be on that bigger pack then for the mountain phase. And then once again and then be back on my little Trekking one coming off the hill. 

Cathy   22:52 
Yeah, sorry. Wayne, did you have a question? 

Wayne Singleton   22:57 
Well, loads of them, actually.  Would you have used like a much larger pack back when you started out then would you would you use like 60 litre plus or something?   

Di Gilbert   23:11 
Oh my goodness. When I'd done Everest the first time I had the biggest Mac pack. That was the heaviest thing, you know, because actually Mac pack were designed to last for life, weren't they? And it was just, like, ridiculous thing that probably weighed 8 kilos empty. And I was trawling through my phone looking at my Instagram post. And that rucsack, you know, and I think I had it for years because it would never destruct. 

But actually I don't want to carry that now because I don't need to carry that now.
So yeah, I do think it might have been A 50 litre rucksack but not massive, because all people do is people just fill it and they just fill it with stuff they don’t actually need. Yeah, I always say to people everything has to fight for a place in my rucksack, you know. And actually I can live without that for a few days, you know, and especially when you've got people starting off this expedition life, I will sit down and I'll say I'm taking that that that, that, that and this rotation and then the next time I’m taking that, that, that and next time I'm taking that. But certainly on the 8000, I'm just saying I'm doing a rotation and then people will say, well, what you're taking up. So depends on what people have done. Go on, Wayne.

Wayne Singleton   24:28 
Yeah. No, that's the next question for me. Is it like you were saying, you've got your 18-20 litre pack when you're doing your touristy trek bit and then come the mountain, you've got your bigger one. Will that make its way all up the camps for want of a better phrase with you or do you just, do you just drop that somewhere at base camp or somewhere like that? 

Di Gilbert   24:36 
No, the big rucksack that will stay with me. So it'll stay with me up and down the mountain. So I'll use my little rucksack as much as I can, so if I'm taking like for example one of the first things, I'll take up the hills is food. Because actually it tends.... 

Wayne Singleton   25:04 
Yeah, that was my next question. Absolutely. Snacks.  

Di Gilbert   25:10
And I can't, like I have tried so hard to eat dehydrated food and I've just I can't eat it. So actually, my food tends to be pretty bulky and it's heavy. And so actually it's not bulky, it's just really heavy. And so actually if I can get away with doing my first rotation with a little rucksack, I will and it's only if I think I actually need a bigger rucksack or then go with my bigger one. But no, everything is very, it’s calculated. I'm not taking a half empty filled ruck sack. It will be full. Yeah.
 
Wayne Singleton   25:43 
And so by heavy do you mean are you taking up like a full square sausage? Is that what you mean? 

Di Gilbert   25:48 
Oh, I'll take me. You know. Me beef jerky's and me blocks of cheese, me tins of tuna. Like I need stuff that I can eat and I can't eat dehydrated food. And so yeah, so I always laugh at the guys in the office that do all the logistics and they're just like, no, I'll be eating this and I go and see my chef and say, can I get some chappatis or can I get some egg. Because I just know, I can't eat any freeze dried. I just can't. 

Wayne Singleton   26:13 
Brilliant. Well, I think it's alright. Every now and then I think isn't it but multi day stuff. I think it does wear a bit thin, doesn't it is.  

Di Gilbert   26:24
Yeah, just give me, like, 4 bags of Jelly Babies any day of the week.
 
Di Gilbert   26:30 
The thing Is you don't eat, you know. So you just you can't eat. And so , I'd rather have like 500 calories of like gunk that I knew I actually liked. 

Wayne Singleton   26:32 
Yeah. Stuff you like?  

Di Gilbert   26:41 
Yeah. So just give me, like, a smoked sausage and a whack of Baby Bells. 

Wayne Singleton   26:43 
Yeah. Oh, well, I was just going to say exactly the same. I'm a big fan of Baby Bell and Peperami. So those are my staples. But yeah, and how do you access all that grub? Have you got, I know Cathy's a big snack fan. Have you got like pockets on the front of your packs. 

Di Gilbert   26:47 
Yeah. 

Cathy   26:48 
Yep. 

Di Gilbert   26:50 
I'm going to say where my claim to fame is; I'm the world's worst eater, which is like, bearing in mind I'm not really a stealth, like, slim person, but I'll go for like, 24 hours without eating and then go oh I need to eat. So, on mountains. I, yeah, I'll, I'll. I don't need to raise. I'll. I'll stock in the morning and then I'll then go without and then I'll stock up when I need to stock up. So I might have like, a little bag of, like sucky sweets are really important because obviously with the dry air, so I've always got bags of sucky sweets. And that's not just for me. But then you can give them to share, give them to your team members etcetera. But in terms of like if I have to have lunch, I'll just stop and have lunch. Yeah. 

Wayne Singleton   27:31 
Yeah. And I guess that's the top motivational thing, isn't it? Like giving sweeties around the group is always great. Sorry, I've really hijacked the conversation here. Sorry, Cathy. With all my with all my questions. 

Di Gilbert   27:52 
No, it's food. It's good. 

Cathy   27:58
No, it's all. It's all fascinating and do you carry more than your clients? If you're leading an expedition or do you have a much bigger rucksack? 
 
Di Gilbert   28:12 
No, not really, because once again, by the time that people have got to a stage here like, what's the point of me taking a spare pair of gloves? Because actually it probably won't fit them, you know? so you know, as long as people have, I will definitely make sur,e because gloves blow away. And so you need to have more than one pair of gloves on the hill. So for things like that I would say are utterly crucial. 

You know, I'll do a physical how many pairs of gloves have you got? Etcetera. But. But no, people need to be self reliant on the hill as far as I'm concerned. And yeah,  I know that a lot of like commercial exhibitions will have sherpas that will take a lot of like team members get up and down the hill. But I don't like being separated from my kit. And so the only thing that I would probably be carrying that they're not is I've probably got a better first aid kit and I've probably got a group shelter.

Cathy   29:05 
Yeah. 

Di Gilbert   29:09 
So but apart from that and I've got the radio, but they've all got radios, they've got a SAT phone, but then they've probably actually got better communication stuff than I've got. Do you know what I mean? So I think in terms of your personal kit, people need to be able to actually be a little bit independent and responsible and actually, and I suppose with Everest as well. So if you haven't got that personal admin organised going from say six to six-five because there are faffer, well, they're not going to make it higher up. They're just going to become a liability. 
So getting people to be self-reliant, lower down the mountain is super important for what then and about to embark on higher up the mountain like, a self-vetting process. 

Wayne Singleton   29:49 
Yeah, that's a really interesting point. We've sort of skirted around that a little bit I think on a couple of the previous chances that the sort of commercialisation and almost that people don't have the experience that they might want to have had for a summit and that yeah so that's a really interesting point that you make there is that progression or the education process as well I guess within it. 

Di Gilbert   29:55 
And it's really interesting Wayne. I don't think, so, Like, I've been guiding, not the 8000ers, but the little peaks for well, over 30 years now and I don't think I have ever told any team member they can't carry on. I've never, because I actually I don't think it's my place to say that, because I don't know what's going on in their head. But what I would like to do is I give people the opportunity to actually. They will know. Yeah, I've I have taken, I've bitten off more than a chew here and it's then up to them to actually say, I'm now turning back. But I don't think I've actually ever said to somebody you need to go down now. It's always been people have said to me I'm turning round and I've just gone; Yeah, we'll chat later. So the people are paying a lot, it is a lot of money, but a lot of time. It's a lot of like away from wives and husbands. And you’ve got a commitment exactly Wayne. 

Wayne Singleton   31:06 
A lot of commitment. 

Di Gilbert   31:11 
You know you need to, just encourage them as much as possible, but at the end of the day they need to be able to put one foot in front of the other and in a really serious environment. So using all this stuff lower down the mountain like, you know it is a self-vetting process, but you'd like to think that by time they've gone to like Everest, they've hopefully done all that in previous peaks and now they're properly in the zone. 

Cathy   31:39
Yeah. And that kind of all ties in with the fact it's not just a physical climb. There's a huge amount up here, isn't there? For any endurance activity.
 
Di Gilbert   31:51 
Yeah, it's interesting you say that Cathy. When I went to Everest because it's, you know, it's going to be your first time, like it has to be somebody's first time always isn't there. And I always remember, when I was about to launch up on my summit rotation. And I remember Dave, who's the owner of Adventure Peaks. He always said to me if you get to top camp Di you’ll summit. You know, and that's actually, that was all I needed and he was true because once you've got to, because on the north the top camps like 8300. 
Once you have made it to 8/3, even though it's a really long slog up onto the actual summit, you're so hungry for that summit, you are going to get up and hopefully back down. But I just thought that was interesting. That's what he said, and it's always stuck with me that if you get to there, you've broken the back of it and actually, just these things you remember. 

Cathy   32:32 
Mantras for life. 

Di Gilbert   32:48 
Yeah. 

Cathy   32:51 
Would you usually use a? I know we've talked about Everest as not a technical mountain. Would you normally use a walking axe? Would you normally use a shorter technical axe when you're on an ascent? 

Di Gilbert   33:09 
I don't think I own a walking axe, Cathy. 

Cathy   33:13 
Sorry. Oh gosh, yeah. 

Di Gilbert   33:15 
Because you say a walking axe, people think you mean a walking stick. 
So I am absolutely so general mountaineering axe. I definitely always carry, even though there are fixed ropes, you always have to assume a rope's going to cut. So if I've got an ice axe at least I think I've got a fighting chance of getting up and down a snow slope in one piece. If the things go wrong, but I don't have my super duper like my work course, for example, that I'd use in Scottish like general mountaineering terrain.  

I have got the lightest ice axe possible and it's pink and literally it would, yeah. And it will pretty much stay on my rucksack. Because literally, when you're going up the rope, I'll have my Jumar on the fixed line and I've probably actually got a trekking pole. But I've got the ice axe on my rucksack so that pretty much will come with me, like whenever I move on that sort of terrain. So if the rope goes or if I need to get past people, I can do it in a safe manner so yeah, but I don't plan cutting steps or anything like that.  

Cathy   34:21 
Those days happily have long gone. So what about a climbing harness as well? Because you obviously must spend a lot of time in a climbing harness, but how do you choose what harness you're going to take with you? 

Di Gilbert   34:46 
Once again, the lightest on the market. Yeah, because you've got so much padding on so, especially on summit days like I'm wearing a down suit. It's not like I'm going to be taking big, massive falls and I'm not going to be weighting that harness as I would if I'm in a traditional Scottish winter climbing or rock-climbing scene. So basically, the lightest harness in the market with a few gear loops, that's all I want, yeah. And then I'll be a little bit comfortable because like when you're doing your rotations, you will actually have like quite a lot of, iIt'll be quite extreme weather. But I would say it's mainly like Scottish winter weather that is not horrendous, but I'm not wearing lots of clothes, but I generally will have on like padding as in clothing so yeah. But once again that goes back down, the whole weight thing. So if I've got that the lightest harness, it's like the size of an eggshell where it's a fine look at my harness, it's hanging up in the garage. It's like a proper big unit. But on these big hills I'm just like, yeah, small is beautiful. 

Wayne Singleton   35:39 
And I guess you keep mentioning Scottish winter and again back to a couple of the recent chats that we've had. It's not as wet is that the right term it's more snow/ wind rather than rain for example would that be would that be right that you're experiencing? 

Di Gilbert   36:16 
Yeah, I think that would probably be true up until a certain point. But I think we can't ignore the fact the world's changing. And actually, yeah. So I think for example, when I was at K2 base camp, I would say it was raining and so and that would have been like that's like that's like what nine years ago and it was raining at 5500m. So I think previously you would be correct and saying that, but I think things are definitely changing. Yeah. So and it's stuff like as well in like I would like my most treasured item of equipment is an umbrella. 

Wayne Singleton   36:47 
OK. 

Cathy   36:54 
Yes, yeah, yeah. 

Di Gilbert   36:56
Because actually I don't want to be wearing, I don't actually think, I don't actually think I take full on heavyweight GoreTex, because it's too warm, you know, but actually, so it's that it's a real it's a real mishmash of temperatures and climate, etcetera. But it is like I would say I have infinitely been much colder and near hypothermic in Scotland in winter than any part of the world I've been to, yeah. So because Scotland's like that horrible, like 0, -1, -2, +1, +2 for example, yeah. Whereas like when you go higher, you're generally it's cold and dry. However, things are changing. 
 
Wayne Singleton   37:41 
And that's a disturbing theme through some of these chats as well, isn't it? The climate change piece is every now and then there's sort of a comment that that comes in about that. And yeah, again, the one just earlier on was that whole roads, roads extending and glaciers retreating as you know, as we're going into places. So yeah. Yeah. But lighting the mood a little bit. You don't have one of those hats with an umbrella on it's not that sort of thing I don't know. 

Di Gilbert   37:51 
No, no. But the mission is always to find the most ridiculous umbrella in the city. 

Wayne Singleton   38:10 
Alright, yeah. 

Di Gilbert   38:15 
So whether it be her from Frozen or like Peppa Pig like you know that's it's always like so I think yeah. So on the K2, I think Jake and I we had the most ridiculous, Jake had whatever it was from frozen, I had Peppa Pig or something, but yeah. And of course, you always then give it to the kids at the end of the trip. 

Wayne Singleton   38:22 
I love it. 

Cathy   38:37 
I mean, as long as it's big enough to be able to crouch behind, that's the Rule 1 for me. 

Di Gilbert   38:37 
Exactly, exactly. And of course, people always say like, why are you buying an umbrella? And it is for the rain, but it's also for the sun because actually in the low valleys, when you're getting flambeed like sunshade. Yeah. And then you're protection if it does rain because it's too warm for a GoreTex. 

Wayne Singleton   38:41 
Yeah. 

Cathy   38:49 
No, it's the ultimate breathable, waterproof, and it can just fit down the side strap of your rucksack. So, you're hands free and the sunshine is great. 

Di Gilbert   39:01 
Absolutely, yeah, yeah. 

Cathy   39:10 
Do you have any like key clothing items that work especially well for you as a woman and that you would recommend to your female clients? 

Di Gilbert   39:22 
Use what you are familiar with. That's the crunch and I think yeah. 

Cathy 
Wise words. 

Di Gilbert    

And I'm going to harp on about Scottish winter once again. 

You know, it's like the best training ground we've got in the world and especially with equipment. So like it's start every winter season like you never quite get the layering right, because of course you've bought a new fleece or you've got another, you know, you've got a different combination and it always takes a little bit like how many hoods do I need? I don't need 4 hoods. I just need one hood. 
But what hood is that layer on so? So at the start of any season you never quite get it right. You know, it's like same with gloves, wrong glove combination or whatever. And then actually just like and we always have like in the Scottish like, in the, in the guiding world like we always like say like the first few days Scottish winter you have to go out with your mates because it's like oh, I've like forgotten this. I've got that I've got the wrong gloves. I've got the wrong everything. You know it's a little bit unprofessional, but it can be like that with your mates can’t it. 

By the time you’ve actually got your professional hat on, you're in the game. 

 I don't think I would take anything new onto a big peak just because I don't know how it works. You know? So, whatever you know and if I can do a big day on Shelter Stone or a big day on the Ben, I'm on the hill for like a big day anyway. So I have to deal with, you know, all the daily chores you have to deal with anyway, so it's more about do you use kit that you are familiar with? Yeah. 

Cathy   41:06 
Yeah, yeah. And actually that sort of leads really nicely into our previous conversation about Lady admin on the mountain. And I loved your response, which was like, you know, it does happen every month, it's not a surprise -nuntil you hit menopause, when you do get surprises - but there's, I think there's loads of options out there, isn't there?   

Di Gilbert   41:13
Oh, excellent. Yeah
 
Cathy   41:32 
When I’ve been on, the big trip I went on and this is back in ’96. And I was on the pill, so I just thought right, I'll just take the pill continually so there's no issue. I don't have to worry about bleeding. I don't have to worry about anything like that. And that worked really well for me. And actually, nowadays there's more options.   

Di Gilbert   41:36 
Yeah, and  absolutely and I think like the way I look at it is it's not, it's not a bronze Duke of Edinburgh expedition. Where you've got people who are just starting out in that field of life and then having to deal with like over nights away, etcetera. And like there's limited facilities. So I think no. So by the time you're on these big hills, you've probably had quite a few years to figure things out. And I think the one thing I would say is: expect the unexpected because the body does funny stuff altitude, so I think and that's not, that's not just from a female point of view like it does weird things to blokes and actually, when you're sharing a tent like either Sherpas or team members who are male, there is no privacy. So I think everyone expect the unexpected and there's obviously got that in the back of your mind. You're under control. But the one thing I would say from a female point of view on expeditions is panty liners because actually it's like a clean pair of knickers every day. Yeah. 

Cathy   42:29 
Right, yeah. 

Di Gilbert   42:53 
And like I'm definitely I am. I'd say my pretty avid anti wet wipe person. Because actually they just, you can't get rid of them. And so if I have a wash I’ll go to a stream or I'll see my cook for a bowl and I'll wash. But I don't like wet wipes and they all freeze anyway. So they are the biggest scam at all for big mountains. But panty liners are,that's it. Like, if I can get away with that, that's definitely the thing I'd go for. 

Cathy   43:21 
Yeah, yeah. 

Wayne Singleton   43:23 
Just on the likes on refuse not, not necessarily linked to that, but generally, does everything you carry in get carried out as well? 

Di Gilbert   43:34 
You would like to think yes. However, that's not really what happens, but like I would say it has come on a long way, but you would know where previous camps are. Yeah. And especially like if I'm speaking about K2 because that's, you know it's a lot more technical than say Everest and actually you don't need to find where the camps are because they're all still there from the previous years. Et cetera. And it's just because actually you can't get things down, you know. And actually when you are physically trying to survive, you know, if you leave a gas canister or an empty wrapper. I think that's why it's really hard, it's very hard to sit here and say, oh, yes, everything we take on the hill, we take off. We do our best and that's all we can and that's all we can do.  

I’ve like, for years now, I always like, at Base camps; I put on a pair of rubber gloves from the from the first aid kit and I do litter picks and I literally I'll always do litter picks at my little base camp and I'll extend the boundary and it's amazing when people see you picking up scabby bits of toilet roll or fag butts or not nice things. People actually don't throw them away or actually they then start doing litter picks. 

Wayne Singleton   45:00 
Yeah, they'll sort it out. 

Cathy   45:02 
Yeah. 

Di Gilbert   45:02
Yeah. So I think we're always trying, we do our best and certainly things like oxygen cylinders etc, because they've got quite a big monetary value. They'll pretty much, they'll do their best to get them down. 
 
Wayne Singleton   45:15 
Get recovered. And that, like you say, we're at the limits of human existence, survival and so on. And we, so if anything goes a little bit pear shaped, you're getting yourself out and you're not going to, you're not going to worry about anything else, I suppose. 

Di Gilbert   45:30
Yeah, exactly. And if you put something down especially when the wind picks up, it's off anyway. So you know and then because you're carrying so little up with you, you know and everything's got a purpose, you want to try and get everything off with you. You know what I mean? So, yeah, so. So I'd like to think that, I think we've come a long way and we probably still need improvement. 
 
Cathy   45:51
Yeah. Well, I mean, we have a tonne more questions and we could continue talking for probably at least another two hours. But no, we are we are out of time. But I would like to say a massive thank you for taking the time to talk with us. Di. It's been fascinating, really has..
 
Di Gilbert   46:12 
Yeah. Thanks so much. 

Cathy   46:19 
And also a big thank you to your sponsor, Scarpa who have made this possible for us. And so there'll be links on our show notes to Di’s page on the Scarpa website and you've got a couple of articles I think up on there as well. Folks can read.  

We are a big supplier of Scarpa shoes at our shops and we literally have everything. If you're climbing rock, if you're walking in, if you're running, on a trail run, right through to, we keep in stock the entire size range of Phantom 6000's, Phantom 8000. 
So you can come on and come in and you can try on your boots in with complete confidence that you're gonna go out with the right pair to protect your toes in your amazing mountain adventures. 

We do encourage people to come in, but you can have a look online to make sure your size is available and in which shop it is at and you can do that at https://www.climbers-shop.com/ . And then we also have a wealth of information available on our sister website which is the Joe Brown outdoor Academy.
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