72: Everest 50 - Fast & Light with Tom Livingstone

The fourth of an extra special 5 part series celebrating 50 years since Doug Scott and Dougal Haston became the first Britons to stand on the summit of Everest, Cathy & Wayne are joined by Mountain Equipment sponsored athlete Tom Livingstone.

Tom is known for his  trad, winter and alpine climbing - the bigger and badder, the better! His Fast & Light approach sets him apart with Sir Chris Bonington describing him as: ‘one of the finest climbers in the world, always using the purest techniques.’  Listen in as Tom talks about minimalism and the self-belief that get’s him to the top and back.

Tom covers a vast array of knowledge including minimalist kit vs bulk, why a piece of kit finds it's place in his sack, what attracts him to new areas, funding and why he favours a double sleeping bag.

Listen ,learn and if you are able, please consider donating to our chosen charity: Community Action Nepal


The Climbers Shop and Joe Brown Shops | Outdoor Clothing & Equipment UK
The Joe Brown Outdoor Academy

Joe Brown Outdoor Academy

Thank you to Mountain Equipment for making this episode possible.

If you found this interesting then don't forget to download our earlier episodes:

Episode 71: Everest 50 - Remote Expeditions With Mick Fowler

Episode 70: Everest 50 - Gear Innovation with Mike Parsons

Episode 69: Everest 50 - 1975 SW Face Expedition with Sir Chris Bonington and Paul 'Tut' Braithwaite

Episode 67: Joe Brown and Kangchenjunga 1955 

Episode 66: Kit Lists - Alpine Climbing with BMG Tom Ripley

Episode 62: Community Action Nepal @KMF24

Episode 52: Gloves with Mountain Equipment @KMF24

Episode 48: New Waterproof Fabrics - What You Need To know Part 2

Episode 41: How To Keep Warm With Dr Matt Fuller

Episode 30: Kit Lists - 8000m Peaks With Jon Gupta

Episode 26: Kit Lists - Expeditions With Andy Cave

Episode 13: Joe Browns and The Climbers Shop Big History

The video of this podcast is available on You Tube

Transcript

 Wayne Singleton   0:09
 Hi there, welcome to Outdoor Gear chat. We are here for episode 72 and our Everest 50th Anniversary series continues with Part 4. I’m joined as always by Cathy Hiya, Cathy. How you doing?

Cathy   0:34
 Hi, Wayne. Yeah, it's a fantastic opportunity to talk about a huge expedition back in 1975 and to celebrate the achievement of Doug Scott and Dougal Haston being the first Britons to summit the world's highest mountain and the sport as whole as well.

Wayne Singleton   0:43
 And the rest of the team behind the scenes, Yeah.

Cathy   0:55
 yes, we discussed it was a big a big expedition.

We obviously have a link, my shops, the climbers shop in Ambleside and the Joe Brown shops in Snowdonia. They’ve got historic links and they've been supplying expeditions for, many, many years, but our Ambleside shop in particular has a very close link to Community Action Nepal, and we've discussed that back in episode 13, I think.

Wayne Singleton   1:25
Yeah, goodness way back.

Cathy   1:26
 I know. So that link Community Action Nepal was started by Doug Scott it is a charity that's very close to our hearts and a really great opportunity for us to give back.
 But to celebrate the link, we've got a fantastic selection of five podcasts to discuss really the kit since 1975, and how it's evolved and how that has kind of impacted the sport and moved the sport of mountaineering and climbing on. And we're actually going to chat today with a climber at the very forefront of modern climbing and doing some incredible routes, I think it's fair to say he’s got a penchant for trad, winter and Alpine climbing. The bigger, the badder, the better. I think I've seen written or quoted.

Tom has awarded the Piolet d’Or, which is the Oscar of mountaineering. It's an award that was given for his assent of the Latok 1, with his two climbing companions, and I do apologize already, I'm going to get these pronunciations wrong. Aleš Česen and Luka Stražar. Tom founded the Young Alpinist group in 2020 with a mission to advance the next generation of world leading young UK alpinists. And so Chris Bonnington said that Tom is “one of the finest climbers in the world, always using the purest techniques.” Now he is driving fast and light expeditions which we're going to talk about today. So, thank you so much, Tom, for taking the time to join us. Welcome.

Tom   3:10
Thank you very much.

Wayne Singleton   3:13
 Hi, Tom. Yeah, that's some intro as well, isn't it? He sat there almost blushing as Cathy's reading it off, I'm sure it's something that you've heard before, though, but what an introduction. loads of questions for us to go through. And I'm reassured that The last episode in the series Mick was talking about his outfits, he was talking about climbing chalk cliffs in crampons and denim flares back in the late 70s.

Cathy   4:05
Yeah, I think all kit has moved on a bit since then.

Wayne Singleton   4:08
 Yeah. Oh, it was amazing. But anyway, sorry we're not. We're not here to talk to him.  Sorry, Tom. Just getting distracted.

Cathy   4:22
Well, I'm just sort of going back to that fast and light and denim flair is obviously not being a regular item in your fast and light packing Tom, but I know you you've kind of, it appears anyway, that you've favored a small team from the beginning when you completed the youngest British ascent of the Cassin Ridge on Denali back in 2012 with fellow Bangor University student Tom Ripley, but not exactly light, I know you had skis, pulks, gear hauls. I watched the video on YouTube and it looked like a big trip, you know? What did you learn from that trip that that focused you really on lighter expeditions for the future?

Tom   5:06
Yeah, that was my first expedition and a great, great success. A great memory that I had climbing the Cassin Ridge with Tom Ripley. We didn't know any different in the sense that we didn't know about the siege style expeditions and things like that that you touched on earlier. So for us it was very natural to go as a team of two and to not have, you know, a giant team in base camp or to use fixed ropes and things like that. That idea, which was it, it it's easy to knock on that these days.
 Actually, what those climbers were doing for the last 100 years, you know, these large expeditions go into huge mountains. It is very, very impressive and it is obviously the best way to climb these things given the circumstances. So it's worth remembering that it's absolutely amazing what climbers have been doing. It's just that we have moved away. And so by 2012, for Tom Ripley and I it was already something well in the past, and it was very logical for us to just go as a pair of climbers.
 That was, as I said a good trip because it all worked out. We managed to climb something and it was a natural steppingstone in my climbing. It didn't feel too out there, although being on Denali felt like a big deal at the time.

 As you said, we had a lot of kit and we went very heavy on to the mountain and that's kind of another thing we're not so interested in the style of the approach. You know we'll take, we'll take loads of stuff to base camp wherever that base camp might be. We might use porters and things like that to help us carry all our junk, so it's certainly not fast and light getting to a base camp, but once you're in a base camp, that's when you really decide what equipment to take. And that's when you really pare down your kit and that's usually because you don't know exactly what the weather's like, the conditions are like and you're not sure whether to take these crampons or those. So it's good to have loads of options just like when you're at home. We've got all this gear. It's only once you then go climbing, do you choose what exactly to take. So that's why it's good to have options and I think it was great to go with Tom Ripley because he really helped make the expedition seem feasible. I think he's very good at organization and if there was an applicable grant, we applied for it and we've probably got the money. And so that's that is worth touching on in the UK, we're really lucky to have a great grant system and great support from shops and things like that. So that's something we should definitely keep making the most of. Considering it was a difficult route for us, at the time and things like that and it was a serious undertaking. I was glad that it was the step in the right direction. It was also very memorable in the sense that, you know, being high on Cassin Ridge felt completely out there. It didn't feel like we were on the moon, but it did feel like a very serious and committing place. So, a great memory from that expedition and to climb the Cassin Ridge in two days with Tom was really good fun.
 Yeah, looking back, it was a very natural and great first step. I'm lucky that it came around and Alaska is a great place to start your expedition career if you like.

Cathy   8:36
 Really interesting that you touched on the fact that you, you take all the kit with you, but you base your decision for what you take with you on weather and that's obviously a major factor. Obviously, the type of ground you're going to be climbing on. But I suppose to an extent a lot of that's unknown because if it's a first attempt, a first ascent, you're not going to know, but that weather is key and we do try and kind of drive that home to our customers and people who are coming in, who perhaps not got the experience or not really just thought that would be priority one rather than just like, oh, I'm. I'm going up and the weather's all right here in the valley and you're going to encounter a huge array of different weather's as you go out. Certainly on a multi-day route. And in Britain just, you know, Four Seasons in one hour, sometimes depending even up little Snowdon.

Tom   9:20
Yeah, certainly, certainly.

Cathy   9:33
 It's such a changeable small island, but obviously like from the Cassin from Alaska you headed out in 2018 on your first trip to the Himalaya and put up a new route on Latok I, for your first trip,  which is fantastic, and that is the route that you were awarded your Piolet d’Or for. What clothing did you use on that trip?
 And I've got to ask because I saw this on one of your videos; at what point did the GIMP suit become part of your repertoire? In fact, you should probably explain what that might be.

Tom   10:11
 Yeah, I think I've moved away from that, that name. But to answer your question of what we took and what I usually take on a multi day attempt on climbing something in the bigger mountains, I'll start with a base layer typically and that will be a long sleeve base layer something that ideally doesn't smell after seven days of climbing.

 And then I found that instead of taking some thermal leggings and long Johns, whatever we call them, I found that the two trousers and the top will always separate and so you'll get cold around the waist, which is really annoying. So I saw that Mountain Equipment make a, or made some leggings which go into a sallopette. It kind of goes on into like a sleeveless vest thing. And so that's what I'm referring to and that's great because it means that it's all in one piece without the arms. And so it keeps you much warmer and you don't have this problem of getting a cold waist and stuff like that, which is kind of annoying. So, all these small bits of details which do make a big difference when they're adding up. After that, I will typically wear some sort of really protective or like a wraparound mid layer and that could be the Eclipse Hooded Zip-Tee. I'll obviously reference loads of Mountain Equipment stuff because that's what I am using but other alternatives are available or you can look these things up online and that will have things like thumb loops so that it can protect your wrists, or, as in, keep the wrists warm and that's great because you lose a lot of heat or the blood can be easily cooled as it goes through your wrist, so that's keeping your hands warmer. It's got a hood, and it's got something that you can zip up so that it really covers your face. Then I'll use something that's a synthetic mid layer and that could be something that has about 60 grammes per square meter of insulation. At the time I used a Mountain Equipment Transition Jacket but nowadays we are experimenting with things that can have a warmer warmth to weight ratio or a better warmth to weight ratio and be slightly lighter. This scenario, which is very interesting 'cause it can be developed further and further, I don't use a down thing because it tends to get a bit wet and hot and humid sometimes so that that renders it not so nice. It's also good because you can wash this item of clothing at the end of wearing it for seven days, which is very important and then I'll typically wear a shell and it'll be a hard shell. It'll be the lightest possible thing that I can find. Might just have one chest pocket and that's it. And you need to be very, very light. All of these things need to be as light as they possibly can. And the reason that I use a hard shell is for the same reason that we use it in the UK. It's lighter than a soft shell, but it's also more protective. It will give you, you know, all weather protection and it's nice and simple to wear, I don't use a soft shell much even in the alps. Because, you know, you hold the two items up well, the hard shell is lighter and it gives better protection. OK, easy choice and then I'll take a down jacket of some sort to go over the top of everything.

 That at the time was the Mountain Equipment Vega and the idea again is that you're taking clothes that will keep you warm, but only just or, you know, with a good margin of safety, but only just. So nowadays it's something like Mountain Equipment Xeros or Kryos jackets. And these are again very impressive developments, which I'm sure they didn't have on the ‘75 expedition. It's a down jacket with a drop liner, it's called, with a piece of fabric over the top so that it keeps the wind and weather out a lot more than just a down jacket with stitching on the baffles. And that means that it can be warmer as well. So again, in the last few years it's been very impressive to see how we can take a lighter amount of clothing all over all a lighter system if you like, but have it warmer than previously. So that's really impressive to see how these changes just go in leaps and bounds.

Wayne Singleton   14:45
 It's really interesting. I think listening to you talking, Tom, and then yeah, talking to Mick yesterday, the hydrophobic down wasn't it? It was an experimental thing that he took was it to Peru, in the late 80s he got chunks of ice basically in the bottom of his sleeping bag that he couldn't get rid of and all the down had clumped together.
 But he was wearing a jacket, which was hydrophobic down, and he said it was just miraculous that it, you know, that it just hadn't got wet. And we take that sort of thing for granted for granted now in our kit.
 The way we’ve got either synthetic down or the hydrophobic stuff that really is gonna keep us warm and is so much lighter and maybe less bulky I guess than historically. And that I guess is bulk another thing for you. So that you know you're saying about the lightness but is the size of stuff important as well?

Tom   15:43
 It is important to an extent, but not anywhere near as much as the weight simply because you know, you're carrying this equipment for many days. So you do need it to be as light as possible, but luckily if it's very light then it doesn't tend to be very bulky either.

Wayne Singleton   16:00
 Yeah, it tends to pack down small as well, doesn't it?

Tom   16:02
Yeah.

Cathy   16:04
 I think it's really interesting how Mountain Equipment as well, we talked in one of our episodes about the changes to waterproof fabrics that are happening and we talked with one of the Mountain Equipment engineers and she was describing how much technology goes into choosing the right fabric for the design as well, and all of that is all drilled together, all these kind of magic voodoo that goes on into these products and all this passion and science that's kind of poured in and that's why we're able to sort of take that light product and then by design it's not bulky because they've spent so long matching the type of fabric that works best in that situation with the insulation.

 Wayne Singleton   16:47
 In those different areas of the body, isn't it?

 Cathy   16:49
 Yeah. It's very clever.

 Tom   16:52
 Yeah, exactly. And it doesn't need to be a highly water resistant or waterproof shell for Alpine climbing because you're not likely to use it in the rain. You're gonna be using it for snow and for wind. So, it's OK if it's not the highest level of waterproofing. Same with the breathability, because you can just open the zip. Often that's the simplest way of, you know, getting rid of or getting some air in. So yeah, exactly. You can really tailor these things to a very detailed degree, which is great. It means that we can benefit from it.

Cathy   17:31
 Yeah, definitely.
 So shifting from clothing to footwear. In 2019, you headed out with Ali Swinton to Koyo Zum in Pakistan and you were basically climbing technical E4 climbing above sort of 6,300 meters.
 Did you have to choose your rock boots there or did you just go for comfort? Or was you looking for a particular design that worked on that particular rock terrain, or was you looking for the warmest or the ones that you could fit socks in so that your feet wouldn't get cold? What was your decision making on that trip?

Tom   18:13
 Well, this trip was really special. This was very memorable for many reasons. On some trips we go for a known challenge or you know, you hear about something such as Lakot 1 one that loads of people have tried for many years and in other trips you go to the edges of the map and you think, well, what is that over there? Why? Why have we not heard of that or what's in this area that we don't know anything about and Will Sim put this great trip together and invited me, and so we're a total of 5 friends to the very northwest of Pakistan, right on the Afghanistan border and found these amazing groups of peaks which we didn't know much about. And we got there and thankfully Koya Zum, which is 6900 meters roughly, was looking incredible. We thought this would be an amazing objective. We don't know anything about it. It was just completely on site. I think it's been climbed by one team of Brits in the 50s.

 And to go back a few years, I'd spent loads and loads of time climbing at Gogarth in North Wales. I think sea cliffs are one of the most amazing things we've got in the UK. We have got a lot of special climbing, but sea cliffs now that I live in France, I can realize how great they are. It's such a cool adventure and I like Gogarth because generally speaking it's got good holds. It's very positive climbing. There's a lot of good gear but it's in a wild and intimidating place and I've always thought what about taking the climbing of Gogarth.
 This steep crashing waves and good holds though and taking that to the bigger mountains and same with ice climbing and mix climbing. How interesting for me would it be to take this technical climbing and take that to higher altitudes? And so that leads on throughout my life, I guess a little bit and thankfully on this mountain Koyo Zum we climbed Alice Winton and I climbed up for a couple of days with some easier climbing and then some really interesting mix climbing. And then we kind of hit this giant head wall. Close to the top of the mountain and at the time it was like, well, this is just ridiculous. This looks like main cliff at Gogarth. It's this steep kind of granite quartzite stuff slightly overhanging, but you can see there's pretty good holds and you could get these kind of funky 3D rests and we somehow managed to climb through this in a bunch of pitches. And to have these, like, 3D rests, but you could like wiggle out a tiny  little loose chip of rock and throw it over your shoulder, and it would just drop 1000 meters all the way down to the glacier below the sun had just come around in the afternoon evening 'cause. It was northwest facing, so it was just about warm enough to pull on my rock shoes and climb these pitches. And Ali did an amazing job on 2nd climbing my boots and crampons and his boots and crampons and all this junk that we had. So that was a really, really cool moment, to experience the reason I took those climbing shoes was because we did wonder from seeing these photos before we went this looks like a climb that might involve rock shoes and I've just got these La Sportiva Miura VS shoes that I use for Gogarth all the time. They're one of my favorite pairs of shoes. OK, we'll chuck them in and I chucked them in in a slightly larger size than normal so that I could use them without, you know, crimping my toes into numbness.

 Nowadays, there are some really light pairs of shoes. I really like the mantra for example, which are a very, very light pair of slipper climbing shoes, and I can take them in the alps quite a lot and I have taken them on big trips as well as a sort of not to get out of jail free card, but if it's really hard pure rock climbing, then you can pull on these shoes and hopefully keep going. The later part of that trip, The Koyo Zum trip did unfortunately end in a rescue and Ali going to helicopter and going to hospital, but that's another story and I guess yeah we learnt lots of lessons and very important to think of the descent and to remember the descent, but thankfully it's all fine. But it was a big contrast between this climb that we did, which was very improbable and for us very, very out there. And such a wild such a very good experience. But unfortunately, the descent was a complete opposite. But yeah, it all ended well and we're still friends.

Wayne Singleton   22:48
 Can I just ask a question about how long did it take you to get to Pakistan, for example, How long did the trip take you in total or how long do trips in general take you? There's a reason for it, which I'll come on to in a minute.

Tom   23:03
 Trips to somewhere like Pakistan, India and Nepal, I'll typically budget 7 weeks and that's for a mountain that's about 7000 meters. And that's because you might need a week to go into the mountains from the UK. You might need a week to travel back, so that's two. You might want two weeks to acclimatize and then you might want two or three weeks to allow for a good weather window. And inevitably there'll be sometimes when it's a lot quicker than that and you might need to go to lower altitude so you don't need as much time to acclimatize, or sometimes you're right to the very limit and you know you're just catching a flight.

Wayne Singleton   23:43
 I like the wry smile that you gave at the end. But there's more stories there to tell it another point isn't there? But yeah, the reason I asked the question is because, we've got complete contrast within what you're doing nowadays. And the Everest 50 years ago where it was months in the planning, the logistics to getting everything out there. And again, when we were talking to Mick about some of his, his adventures, he was saying he felt very lucky at the end of the 80s to be the first to be able to take a flight somewhere and it was dead quick. You know the Pakistan expedition that you just mentioned there for example back in the 50s probably took you know I don't know three months plus you know it must have been three to six months to be honest mustn't it with all the planning and getting everything over land to get there.

Tom   24:18
 Yeah, it's something that's both good and bad. The world that we live in at the moment because yes, we can fly to these places and do these things very quickly. But nowadays, you know the roads are going further and further into the mountains. And so, you start walking at a closer place. That means it's more accessible. But yeah, we I almost look wistfully at these expeditions of the 50s ,60s, 70s, 80s where they started walking way back down there and it was two weeks to give them the mountains and such disconnection and time being just in that moment, if you like.

Wayne Singleton   25:11
 And that the environmental impact as well, it always strikes me of all of that, isn't it is. Yeah, this is there's a lot to be said about that time versus this I suppose. But yeah.

Cathy   25:23
 It's environmental and economic as well, isn't it? Because in years of old expeditions started walking from Kathmandu and now they just start from Lukla? So that whole economic benefit to that region vanished as soon as the aircraft or the, I suppose, the airport was built at Lukla and then in the Indian Himalaya I’ve travelled to the Garhwal region quite a lot over the last 34 years. We've seen how as the glaciers have receded, the roads have extended. There's been this bizarre, it's almost, I suppose it's what's happening. Climate change manifested really.

Wayne Singleton   25:58
 And the direct correlation between the two things I suppose.

Tom   26:08
 Yeah, yeah, I can now go on three trips a year, which is great. And if well managed, that's means that you can get a lot of time climbing and it suppose it's worth saying that on these ambitious trips you perhaps have a 50% chance of getting to do the thing you really want to do. And so the more trips you can go on, the more chance you can succeed. You need a lot of stars to align and a lot of luck to make these trips happen. So it's worth keeping that in mind, but yeah it's not really acceptable to do 3 trips a year and it has a huge environmental impact. So yeah, there's all sorts of things behind it.

Cathy   26:48
 Yeah, I guess just kind of thinking more about going back to sort of the kit that you're carrying with you. And actually, as you mentioned, not everything goes too plan and particularly if you're doing 3 trips a year, there's a lot larger chance of things not going to plan because you're putting yourself in those different environments and into those remote areas. And I know you've been back to the northeast pillar of Tengkangpoche. Is that the correct?

Tom   27:19
 Yeah, I think that's roughly how it sounds.

Cathy   27:22
 An OK pronunciation. But there was, your climbing partner there was a fall and a damaged finger and Matt lost a crampon heel bale, which can be critical and just a small thing like that can make or break a trip depending where it happens.
 Have you found over the years that your repair kit, as you kind of go fast and light, do you still include a repair kit and are there key items that you do not go up the hill without?

Tom   27:57
 Yeah, that was also a very special trip with Mike Glenn. I fell off, but Matt dropped both his crampon bales somehow amongst all the other stuff that you know on our climb. I don't tend to carry a set repair kit beyond base camp, in base camp I will take loads and loads of stuff, but on the mountain, the most important thing, I suppose, is the first aid kit. But beyond that, many other things will, I hope that they just don't go wrong, like a crambon toe Bale. I think you could improvise with a piece of cord perhaps, but it would be difficult. For Matt I'm not sure how this happened, but it was just unlucky and both his crampon heel bales came out over the course of the climb. Luckily, he was able to tie them onto his boots, and it was on the last two days I think so we could just improvise like that and really crank them on and then just leave them on the whole time. And the bivies we could take off his outer boots.

Cathy   29:05
 I guess the the old gaffer tape and cable ties are probably.

Tom   29:09
 Yeah. It's very annoying and unlucky if it happens. And there are some things that you can improvise with and some things not. It's a bit of a balance between, like, the situation that you're in and what you have left to climb and how much you can improvise safely or not. In this instance we were able to make it work, which is good.

Cathy   29:10
 Yeah. Grand.
 One of the things I will say sort of came across just sort of reading some of your articles was your request for a double sleeping bag from mountain equipment on one of your trips to Gasherbrum 3.
 That's obviously, like almost the ultimate in minimalism, just like, right one sleeping bag between 2.

Tom   29:59
 Yeah, yeah, this is absolutely an amazing bit.

 Cathy   30:01
 How did that come about? Who gets to carry it?

Tom   30:04
 It's an amazing bit of kit, it really has changed and improved the way that we bivy. The concept is that it's a sleeping bag with enough space for two people. So it's well designed so that it's comfortable and it therefore weighs about the same as two sleeping bags or a bit less, but is double the warmth because there's sharing body heat and there's a fair amount of down inside it and it's a custom piece that mountain equipment made just for me. So, it's very lucky. It doesn't matter who carries it. I don't. I don't really know. You know, we don't decide who, who carries it or anything like that. But yeah, that means that you're twice as warm, you're carrying half the amount of weight. You're also drying the sleeping bag really effectively and seems to be a big problem for some people on day-to-day climbs, multi day climbs, the sleeping bag will eventually get wet and that will be a big problem for them, but because the sleeping bag, the double sleeping bag sort of breathes really well.

 You can then get rid of all the moisture that's inside it on day-to-day basis and so it's never really got wet. So that's great. Yeah. It's a really, really good piece of kit.

Cathy   31:19
 Yeah. So, is that actually cemented in your trip kit now every time you go away?

Tom   31:24
 Yeah, I will always try to take this, and I suppose it's worth saying like, we talk about fast and light and it's very easy to do that in in places like the Alps, the Canadian Rockies, Alaska, the Patagonia. And I really enjoy climbing in that style. But when you're trying to do a technical new route to a high altitude, let's say above 6000 meters, you then start to encounter lots of unknowns and so it's very difficult to just go fast and light no bivy kit, for example. You start to become quite strung out or you start to take a lot of risks, or simply you just have such a small amount of like a small success rate because you're like, well, OK, this has taken more than 48 hours. We're going to have to bail. So that's why we often end up taking a bivy kit and that's why these ascents can take a long time. It's sort of you want to make the most of that trip and to succeed. So you then take a bit of extra reserve, and also you know that you don't know anything or you know that that'll probably be hard climbing. That's one of the things I'm attracted to. That's why these fast and light trips are not so fast and light, you know, we're not running up things like we do in the Alps, but we're trying to go as fast as we can, but we might still have a pretty heavy backpack overall.

Cathy   32:57
 I know you write a lot of articles for magazines. And one of the sort of quotes that stuck with me that you wrote was ‘minimalism is as important as self-belief’. And so having a firm focus I suppose on the goal and what's being realistic, on what you need to carry with you to achieve that and taking into account rest and taking into account food as well, because obviously that's critical to keeping blood flow to digits and to toes and fingers and stuff and so the food that you're carrying, how do you make your decisions around that as well? Is it taste? Is it compactness? Weight?

Tom   33:46
 I go back slightly to what you were saying. Yeah, it's very important to have.
 The self-belief to do it, not to be unrealistic, but to have an idea, right? This thing is possible, and perhaps you could have the best climbing situation in the world. But if you don't want to be there, if your mind isn't fully ready, then.You might go down, even though the weather's nice and basically when people like Mick Fowler and Paul Ramsden say, OK, well, these trips are 50% mental. I agree with them. Yeah, that the mind is very important to go to what you're saying about food. Yeah. I think food is something that's very important again. You can cut corners, and so, for example, on some of my climbs, you might just take a freeze-dried meal that you share in the morning. A freeze-dried meal that you share in the evening, and three energy bars a day, for example. So, you're really losing a bit of weight over the course of the trip, but not unnecessarily so. What we tend to take is dictated by the weight and the size and meals will be between 100 and 200 grammes per meal and that depends. You know, if you're sharing it or not, particularly in the later parts of the climb, you might be sharing a meal just because it's more economical to share something because of the weight penalty. I don't mind what I eat, but I know some people have real trouble digesting freeze dried food or foods at altitude, so it's worth having consideration with your partner and what you like to eat. And I've found that I will take a selection of bars both from the UK and in country. I've found that if I just take the most calorific, you know X brand, then by the end of the trip you're really sick of them and you don't want to eat them.

Cathy   35:44
 Yeah.

Tom   35:45
 And to touch on my experience at higher altitudes, one of the things I wanted to do, as I said, was to climb, you know, these technical routes. But at higher altitudes, so Koyo Zum was an example and many climbs have been an attempt at going in that direction. So, in 2022 and then finally in 2024, Aleš Česen and I climbed the West Ridge of Gasherbrum 3. And this was the idea of climbing a technical new route at altitude. So around 8000 meters. And we found that on sort of 7000 meters above it was so difficult to eat and drink and we were just like breaking energy bars and trying to shove them in your mouth. And it was bizarre cause normally I have a good appetite and can eat anything and on this trip it's just, you know, higher altitudes meant you couldn't really eat as much as you like. You just didn't have the appetite and stuff like that. So you're just trying to do as much as you can as well given the circumstances.

Cathy   36:37
 Yeah. I have been in that situation where you're trying to ”out stare” your meal.

Tom   36:53
 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Cathy   36:55
 I don't want to put this in myself and you just know that you're going to feel better if you do. But yeah, it's a fight.

Tom   37:01
 Yeah, yeah.

Cathy   37:04
 And having that mixture of salt and sweet as well.

 Tom   37:07
 Yeah.

Cathy   37:08
 I made the mistake on one trip on just packing loads of sweet stuff and that wasn't a good idea.

Tom   37:13
 Yeah, it's good to have a variety. Yeah, for sure.

Cathy   37:15
 You just don't know what your taste buds are gonna do.
 I've actually I've got to ask when you geek out on weight, do you go properly all out and go for the spreadsheet, or do you just? Is it like a physical weight thing when you pack it all in and you're like, no, something's got to go.

Tom   37:35
 I definitely take a small portable weighing scales on trips, so yes, it is very precise, but it's worth keeping an eye on the big picture and not to be too ridiculous about it.
 Function is obviously so important on these sorts of things, and so sometimes nowadays I will take to sleep on a just a piece of foam mattress, but I will also take a really small like half length, very light inflatable mattress. And that's because I've found that if I'm sleeping just on this foam for seven days, it means I don't sleep well. I don't recover well, and it wrecks my shoulders, so I've taken this little thing as a sort of luxury, but it then means I sleep much better. So, yeah, the weight is very, very important. But up to a point. And if you can do something with, if you if you've got an item which you can do many things with, then that's absolutely brilliant. If it can be as useful as possible.
 
Cathy   38:40
 Yeah. Superb. I think the size on Gasherbrum 3 you mentioned that your pack was about 12 kilos. And does it, does it vary much from trip to trip or have you found now you've got you can almost pack your kit blindfold because you've got your kit, you've got the items at work, unless you've got something on test, I guess that would make a difference.
 Is that how you're packing works these days?

Tom   39:13
 Yes and no. I definitely think that practice and climbing lots will give you a very clear idea of what you want to take. So, I think that's really important to do, to climb as much as you can before a trip. But I think it's very much case by case circumstance and so for some climbs you might take no rope, for some climbs you might take up just one half rope. So, for some climbs you might take double ropes or single and tight, for example. So it's really up to you how brave you're feeling or how the descent, what the descent is and the amount of hard climbing that you might find.

 So for each item, it is a balance between. OK, so how do I want this to perform? Is it just once or is it all the time? Do I need it to be absolutely reliable, or do I need it just in case? Do I need to have this much food for example? So, it's very, very important to work out exactly how useful it's gonna be and how many times you’re going to use it.

Cathy   40:22
 And I suppose that kind of thought process as well that that works not just at high altitude mountaineering, but it also works if you're on like a long distance through walk through hiking trip or if you're ultra running is the classic. You know, people get so caught up on the nth gramme of the food that they're carrying or this or that and  I think, depending on where you are at in your athletic career, it can make a very big difference, but if you're way lower down the pack like me; I'm like, no, you know, that's not going to make a difference for me. I'm much better with getting the comfier shoes or, you know, just carrying that bit extra because I know I'm going to sink, my energy is going to sink at that point, and I can just top myself up.

Tom   41:15
 Yeah, it's absolutely right. And that I apply that with UK trad climbing and with Alpine climbing. So, I think, yeah, it's really important to, as you say, keep an eye on the big picture, but also to be relatively aware that climbing is a sport where you have to carry everything that's on you. So yeah, if it's clear that I don't need a number four Cam on this single pitch root. Then I won't take it and that's a little bit like the self-belief thing. OK, I'm gonna believe that. It's not necessary and If I find that I don't need it, then I'll be, you know, much lighter and will climb easier. If I find that I need it well, can I get some other gear in stuff like that? You know? It's. Yeah. If it's like the hardest on sight I'm going for then, yeah, maybe I will need that cam because it'll make me feel better. Or maybe the option of getting in some other gear next to it is going to take much more energy.

Cathy   42:00
 That's really interesting because knowing that the kind of level that you climb at and  the level that I don't climb at, if I'm starting out at the beginning of a season, what I might put onto my rack at the beginning of the season is very different to what would be if I'm doing the same route at the end of the season or a similar route at the end of the season and it is down to head games and confidence and that yeah, confidence in self-reliance and that's what I love about all of the kind of mountaineering and climbing and or Ultra running. Whatever you're doing, that's self-sufficiency, how that translates back into everyday life, basically.
 And yeah, and all those kind of skills that kind of come back into your day-to-day and into the workplace sometimes as well.

 Tom   43:03
 Yep.

Cathy   43:08
 The big question is, have you ever found yourself in a situation where you needed something warmer or you needed additional kit?
 And have you come up to a point where you've thought that light was too light?
tom   43:25
 Yes and no, I think it's good to be a bit scared in life and I think it's good to be fearful of particularly committing Alpine climbing, to be a little scared of, of too much commitment to know. I used to say, oh, yeah, wouldn't it be amazing to be just completely out there and to be completely committed on a big climb but, that's actually probably a bit too risky and you realize that often you can go down on many mountains, it's rare to be completely committed and even climbing with 1x 1/2 rope and a Beal Escaper on Gasherbrum 3, Aleš and I realized well, we probably could get down from this point to that point, there was a point where it would be probably, well definitely would be much easier to sort of bail upwards. But yes, it's good to try and be a little conservative, a little wary of that I definitely have gone a bit too light and then you just end up shivering a bit and thankfully it's not you know, I try not to do it on a serious or a very consequential climb, but certainly just trying things here in the Alps is a great testing ground and also a great place in itself. And you realize, OK, well, if it says -20 and it feels -20 and it's windy and snowy. OK, right. Well, that jacket is not quite warm enough for technical climbing. It might be OK for moving together all the time, but OK that item is great for up to that point, but not there, so that's useful. There's so many variables in climbing that it's often hard to make a rule, but yeah, generally it's better to err on the side of caution, but not too much. I think that's it's a very easy thing to take the kitchen sink, just in case.

 Cathy   45:23
 Yeah.

 Tom   45:25
 So yeah, that's where you're experiencing the self-belief will help a little bit.

 Cathy   45:30
 Yeah, and I kinda bring that back down to the UK and going back to our super changeable climate, and if you are just out for a day, you're not committed because you're out on the walk and you're going to be able to get back then actually it probably is a situation if you're not sure then pack it because if you don't need it, there's no consequence to, you know taking it with you.

 Tom   45:50
 I'll take the best, the hardest wearing shells that I can for Scotland because I know the weather is really, really difficult often. And the reason that I might not get up a pitch is not because of the weight of my jacket and my trousers. It's because of the pitch or it's because of me. So yeah, in Scotland, for example, you can afford to take a lot of stuff and you'll be happy to take a warm or a really resistant item of clothing and you'll take, you know, big, heavy synthetic jackets because the belays will be two or three hours long. Think. Oh, great. Take as long as you like. I'm going to eat all this food that we've carried and I'm going to be nice and warm in this jacket.

 Cathy   46:37
 Yeah, absolutely. You just carry on in that spin drift.

 Tom   46:40
 Yeah, As my friend Ouisdean Hawthorne says, the longer you take climbing, the more I get to eat.

 Cathy   46:48
 Fantastic. That's a top mantra. I'm gonna use that. Tom, it's been an absolute pleasure to speak with you today. Thank you once again so much for your time. Taking the time to talk to us and joining us from your home in France. It's been super. I want to say thank you also to Mountain Equipment. One of your main sponsors. And they've made this chat possible today. And as we explained at the beginning, it is part of our Everest 50th anniversary celebrations and we will be having a window in our Ambleside side shop dedicated to that expedition and the evolution of equipment, mountain equipment in fact. From that period to the present day, so do come along and see it. If you've been listening to Tom and you would like to find out more about his writing and his guiding as well, because you are available to guide. Or can you fit? Can you fit that in with your three trips a year?

 Tom   47:51
 I should say I am not a Mountain Guide. I'm just an SPA, an ML back when they were things. But now that I live in in France, I don't do that anymore. But perhaps, yeah, if I go to the UK and the SPA and ML are still valid somewhere, I will be happy to that.

 Cathy   48:08
 Cracking day out on Stanage.

 Tom   48:13
 Yeah, that sounds that sounds cool. but, I'm not. Not really available to guide, but thank you.

 Cathy   48:19
 No problem. So you can find out more about Tom's writing at his website  www.tomlivingston.com and in the show notes you will find links to episodes talking with mountain equipment, product design manager Malcolm Rudge about their gloves and also with their Doctor of Down, Matt Fuller so there's a wealth of information to find out there. You can of course, come along if you're planning your own adventures and buy all of your kit from walking in the Lake District right through to climbing an 8000 metre peak and that is available at https://www.climbers-shop.com/ And we also have a world wealth of free information available on our sister website, the Joe Brown Outdoor Academy and that is available at https://www.joebrownoutdooracademy.com/